亡灵之手

刘强爱电影

提起大岛渚，许多人不知道，但一说他执导的《感官世界》，喜不喜欢电影的年轻人大都听过看过。确实，惊世骇俗的《感官世界》光芒太过耀眼，以至于遮蔽了它的所谓“姐妹篇”，这部同样杰出的影史佳作——《爱之亡灵》，知道它的人甚至比知道大岛渚的人还少。距离我第一次看这部电影，已经过去了十几年，它在我心中的地位，越来越高。

《爱之亡灵》的主题没有《感官世界》那么晦涩，讲的就是欲望与爱情的区别，听起来很“学术”，但大岛渚讲得非常深刻又有意思，这就是电影大师的能力和魅力。

阿石，是两个孩子的母亲，是车夫伊三郎的妻子，可惜，她还是个女人。和许多已婚女人一样，她跟丈夫的生活就是搭伙过日子，各自做好各自的本分，至于情啊爱啊什么的，早已消失殆尽，面对村里男人对自己的言语骚扰以及浪荡儿丰次与自己的暧昧，丈夫也只是口头提点一下，寄望她“自觉些”，却从没想着关怀安抚，更别说讨好一下她。很明显，在伊三郎心中，妻子就是妻子而已，是那个他忙了一天回来，应该做好饭、烧好洗澡水，再给他按摩一下的“同事”，早就不是那个会在意、会嫉妒、会吃醋的心上人了。

可是，谁不需要爱呢？于是，当丰次向阿石正式发起肉体进攻的时候，虽然纠结，虽然挣扎，阿石还是缴械投降了，两人越陷越深，到了必须铤而走险，杀掉伊三郎的地步。

此时，试问一下，他们究竟陷进了什么？真的是爱情吗？答案要在伊三郎死后才会渐渐浮出水面。

伊三郎真的是一个自私的丈夫，死了，也是一个自私的鬼魂。他像是在索命，实际上并不是，他还是如活着时那样，出门拉车，回来了就坐在灶边等着阿石给他吃的喝的，对自己的过往，没有一丝的反省与愧疚。其实，作为一个人，他早就死了，当他失去爱一个人的能力时，就已经死了，成了一具不辨人生方向的行尸走肉，妻子之于他的意义，不过是一个指向歇脚处的路标，活着时是，死了还是，他一点都不希望阿石死去，当阿石让他带走她时，他离开了，阿石身陷火海想要自焚时，他还第一次在丰次面前显身，让丰次去救阿石。表现伊三郎对阿石这种依靠却不去爱的自私心理，影片中有一场戏堪称神来之笔：伊三郎的鬼魂拉着阿石走在雾气森森的小路上，他对阿石说，我忘了回家的路了。

阿石也迷失了。村民的流言蜚语、伊三郎的鬼魂、查案警察的压力，都让她时时处于崩溃的边缘。更让她痛苦的是，三年了，丰次也没来跟她住一起，借口怕引起别人的注意。阿石倒问得直接，你是对我厌倦了吗？丰次只会让她忍耐、忍耐，再忍耐。

现在就很清楚了，丰次并不算爱阿石，他对阿石的那种激情，只是欲望，无论是性欲、征服欲，还是偷良家妇女的欲望。伊三郎死后，丰次的这些欲望统统得到了满足，要么缓缓褪去，要么立刻消失，他对阿石的懈怠与敷衍，掩饰都掩饰不住。从这个意义上说，丰次也是自私的，为了满足欲望，对杀人引致完全可以预见的各种危险不管不顾，先排除障碍再说，至于阿石日后的麻烦与忧虑，压根儿不在乎。对一个人只有欲望，就是这样冷酷，伤害那个人，是时间问题。

好，再拿这个标准来看阿石对丰次的感情，其实也是欲望，无论是性欲、刺激欲，还是过上新生活的欲望。阿石同意跟丰次一起杀掉伊三郎，首先是为了自保，防止东窗事发后自己身败名裂，其次是为了过上舒心的生活，跟丰次厮守，最多排第三。在这段感情中，她和丰次一样自私，每件事也是先考虑自己，将对方视为满足自己欲望的工具。阿石对杀人行为的事实鼓励，带给丰次的痛苦，更为隐蔽，也更无处可逃，是可以将人压垮的心理罪，丰次只能通过不断向抛尸的枯井里抛洒树叶来疏解和掩藏。

欲望这个东西，本身并没有好坏，就看它会不会遮蔽人的双眼，将人吞噬。对爱情来说，欲望是非常重要的，否则，茫茫人海，怎么可能一眼就相中心上人？欲望，是爱情的红线，是爱情的指明灯，是爱情的火把，但它不能喧宾夺主，将人捆到窒息、照到眼盲、烧成灰烬。大岛渚用伊三郎临死时高举的胳膊和阿石性高潮时高举的双腿这两个相似的视觉意象进行并置呼应式象征，简洁明了地揭示了不受控制的欲望与毁灭的因果关系，相当精彩，这就叫电影化叙事。

如果，这个故事仅仅停留在这里，那它就是一个普通的因果报应寓言，也不错，但距离伟大，还差得远。大岛渚没有停止自己的步伐，让故事突然峰回路转，开始为我们阐述，什么是爱情。

被鬼魂和警察压得透不过气的阿石还是崩溃了，向伊三郎恳求以死赎罪未果后，选择了自焚。她让赶来救她的丰次独自逃命追求幸福，要一个人承担这一切。第一次，阿石放下了自己的欲望，愿为丰次牺牲，这令丰次非常感动，真正打开了他的心灵。尝试救阿石失败后，丰次看见了伊三郎的鬼魂，忽然明白伊三郎死后，他已是阿石唯一的依靠，他不去拼死救阿石，还能有谁去救这个愿为他牺牲的女人呢？

阿石的牺牲举动终于换来了之前一直求之不得的丰次的爱，而丰次的这份爱，表现形式也是牺牲——从火场救出阿石后，他同样放下了自己的欲望，愿意一个人认罪，让阿石装不知情。被捕后，两个人争相承认是自己杀了伊三郎，在这一刻，谁还能说他俩之间的感情，不是爱情呢？

回头看，自焚事件后，阿石与丰次都感受到了真正的爱情，想要紧紧抓住，可为时已晚。杀掉发现枯井的小老板灭口，试图转移伊三郎的尸体，都没能改变他俩的命运。早知真正的爱情这么简单，这么甜蜜，有什么必要杀掉伊三郎呢？丰次后悔了，他重新叫阿石“夫人”，与他回味两人没有暧昧、光明正大接触时的美好；阿石也后悔了，她甚至不再奢望与丰次在一起，只希望丰次能记住她的美丽。

如果，他俩在相遇时就能分清欲望和爱情，愿意牺牲各自满足欲望的快感，牺牲自己的时光，不去贪求欲望的即时满足，选择隐忍中默默等待命运的眷顾，那他俩就算最终没有在一起，可至少还能远远地彼此守望，在这冷酷的生活中互相温暖。

爱情就是牺牲。

一直有个小心愿，就是有机会去日本了，一定要在大岛渚的墓前献上一束花——在合适的年龄看到合适的电影，很重要。

感谢大岛渚。

【本文首发于《虹膜》公众号】

作者：Michael Henry

译者：覃天

校对：易二三

来源：Positif（1978年5月刊）

What were the circumstances that brought you to the projectEmpire of Passion?

记者：你是怎么开始《爱的亡灵》这个项目的？

This film is very tightly linked toSenses.Isn’t it the fate of a creator to respond, through a new work, to the sympathy previously bestowed on him by critics, and maybe even to try to surpass the previous work? In truth, at the end of 1976, the year I dedicated myself entirely toIn the Realm of the Senses,an unknown person, Itoko Nakamura, sent me her book. I get a lot of publications this way—new books that someone asks me to review and unbound manuscripts from unknown authors. I often spend entire days leafing through them. But when I’m working on a specific project, I will open the envelope out of compulsion but put off reading what’s inside until later. As I was starting to write the script for my next film, I was just about to put Nakamura’s book aside when its title suddenly captured my attention—Takashi Nagatsuka: Three Generationsto Fertilize the Soil.For many months, I had kept Nagatsuka’s novel,The Soil,which I consider a masterpiece, in a drawer. And this unknown correspondent had enclosed a letter in her package, from which one sentence stood out: “I’m certain that the director ofIn the Realm of the Senseswill understand: even in this dark period of Japanese history, the era of the Meiji, love did exist.” She added: “This book has many misprints, but it would have never seen the light of day without the help of a network of friends generous with their time and advice.” The message touched me deeply, and I immediately took the privilege of being the first to read the manuscript.

大岛渚：这部电影与《感官世界》的联系十分紧密。对一个创作者来说，通过一部新作来回应影评人此前给予他的认同，并且试图超越前作，这难道不是他的命运吗？事实上，在１９７６年底，也就是我全身心投入到《感官世界》的那一年，一个不知名的人——中村糸子给我寄来了她的书。我通过这种方式获得了很多出版物——有人请我审阅的新书，以及不知名作者的未装订手稿。我经常花一整天的时间翻阅它们。但是当我在做一个具体的项目时，我会迫不及待地打开信封，但会过一会儿才去看里面的内容。当我开始写下一部电影的剧本时，我正要把中村糸子的书放在一边，但是它的标题突然吸引了我的注意力——《长塚节：三代人印象中的小说「土」》。几个月来，我一直把长塚节的小说《土》放在抽屉里，我认为它是一部杰作。而这位不知名的作者在她的包裹里附上了一封信，信中有一句话格外醒目：「我相信《感官世界》的导演一定会明白：即使在日本历史的黑暗时期——明治时代，爱也是存在的。」她补充说：「这本书有很多印刷错误，但如果没有朋友之间慷慨提供的时间，建议和帮助，它永远不会面世。」这句话深深地打动了我，我立即有幸第一个读到了手稿。

How did this manuscript influence or inspire the screenplay that you were working on at the time?

记者：中村糸子的手稿在多大程度上影响了你当时正在着手写的剧本？ Itoko Nakamura wanted first of all to convey in writing a true image of Takashi Nagatsuka. She said, “If I don’t write it, who will?” Of course she’d never met the great writer, who lived from 1879 to 1915, but her grandfather and father knew him well. They had recounted numerous anecdotes about his life to her in great detail. The stories that connect the three generations of Nagatsuka and Nakamura would make for a real saga. And from that saga, the character of Takashi [Nagatsuka] stands out as a sympathetic man rather than an abstract genius. You can only share in the warm feelings Nakamura expresses toward her character, Nagatsuka.

大岛渚：中村糸子想首先通过写作传达出长塚节的真实形象。她说，「如果我不写，谁会写呢？」当然，她从未见过这位生活在１８７９年至１９１５年间的伟大作家，但她的祖父和父亲很了解他。他们向她详细地讲述了许多关于他生活的趣闻轶事。将长冢节和中村三代人联系在一起的故事将构成一个真正的传奇。从这个传奇故事中，长塚节的形象跃然纸上，他是一个富有同情心的人，而不是一个抽象的天才。你能从中村糸子笔下的长冢节身上感到温暖。

To enrich her biography, she also evoked the unfortunate murder of Gisaburo, the rickshaw man. This event happened on the night of February 20, 1896, and she’d often heard about it because her father had been the police investigator at the scene of the crime. According to Nakamura, the novelist became very interested in this murder, which took place in a village close to his. He had intended to devote a novel to it, but he died before being able to write it. On her end, after having questioned all the people who might have known about the murder, Nakamura gathered together all her findings in one narrative. I was struck by this story, which does, in fact, prove that “even in this dark period of Japanese history... love did exist.”

为了丰富她的传记，中村糸子还提到了人力车夫仪三郎被不幸谋杀的事件。这件事发生在１８９６年２月２０日的晚上，她经常听说这件事，因为她的父亲曾是犯罪现场的警方调查员。根据中村的说法，这位小说家对这起谋杀案非常感兴趣，这起谋杀案发生在离他很近的一个村庄里。他本打算写一部小说，但还没来得及写就去世了。在询问了所有可能知道这起谋杀案的人之后，中村把她所有的发现都收集到了一个故事中。这个故事给我留下了深刻的印象，事实上，它确实证明了「即使在日本历史上这段黑暗的时期…...爱是存在的。」

I was touched even more deeply because the screenplay I was working on took place, give or take a few miles and a few years, in the same world. My main character, instead of being a rickshaw man, was a carriage driver nicknamed the Bear Ogre, who was in all the Japanese newspapers’ crime blotters in 1926. To describe the suffering endured by poor peasants hungry for love, I created a story that was in fact very close to Nakamura’s. So I first tried to include the murder of the rickshaw man in my own screenplay. But as I progressed, the characters from the manuscript kept imposing themselves on me, until they invaded the entire story. In the end, I decided to write to Nakamura, and got her consent to adapt a section of her work.

我被更深地触动到了，是因为我正在写的剧本的故事，发生地的距离和故事的时间，都和中村提到的事件相近。我的主人公不是一个人力车夫，而是一个在１９２６年，出现在所有日本报纸的犯罪记录中，绰号叫「食人熊」的马车司机，为了描述贫苦农民对爱情的渴望，我创作了一个与中村非常接近的故事，所以我首先尝试在自己的剧本中加入车夫被谋杀的情节。但随着我的进展，手稿中的人物不断地对我施加影响，直到他们侵入了整个故事。最后，我决定给中村写信，并得到她的同意改编了她的一部分作品。

What kind of a link do you see betweenPassionandSenses? Did you get the idea of a diptych as you were developing the new project, or did it happen progressively as you were directing it?

记者：你认为《爱的亡灵》和《感官世界》之间有着什么样的联系？你是在开始这个新项目的时候，还是在执导它的时候，想到了制作一部与《感官世界》对应的影片呢？ It’s completely normal for a filmmaker to bathe more than once in the same spring. And the close relationship you mention does indeed seem to exist. Just as inIn the Realm of the Senses,the story is about a man and a woman who do not hesitate in aligning their daily existence with their deepest sexual urges. Nowadays, nothing interests me quite as much as approaching the various forms that love can take with people who can only besavedby that love.

大岛渚：对于一个导演来说，「在一片泉水多次沐浴」是十分寻常的。而你提到的这两部电影之间密切的关系似乎确实存在。就像在《感官世界》中一样，《爱的亡灵》的故事讲述的是一男一女毫不犹豫地将他们的日常存在与他们最深层的性冲动结合起来。如今，没有什么比探讨爱情的各种形式更让我感兴趣的了，因为只有通过这种爱才能拯救那些人。

InSenses,the lovers created from start to finish—and with such supreme refinement—the voluptuous world that united them until the voluntary death of Kichi. Whereas inPassion,the couple seem to be the victim of their own desires and fantasies. The passion between Seki and Toyoji is depicted as a descent into hell. Is this the fate of adulterous love in the era in which the story is rooted? Or do you think that love in and of itself carries a tragic fate?

在《感官世界》中，那对情侣自始至终创造了一个如此精致的，纵欲的世界，这个世界将他们联结在一起，直到石田吉藏最终自愿性的死亡。而在《爱的亡灵》中，这对夫妇似乎是自己欲望和幻想的牺牲品，而女主人公阿石和丰次之间的激情被描绘成应该下地狱的一种感情。这是故事发生的那个时代，不贞爱情的命运吗？或者你认为爱情本身就是一种悲剧的命运？

The space inSenseswas delineated by the different rooms of love. It was artificially created, completely designed for voluptuousness. On the other hand, inPassionit is all about nature. Seki has a house where she lives with her husband, and Toyoji a small hovel that he shares with his young brother. Neither of these places is artificial. The two lovers live in fear because they constantly feel threatened by nature. I am trying to depict the human condition in its primal stage. In that sense, my new film goes back to the roots of all life, much more deeply thanSensesever did. The lovers seem cast into hell because of their sexual urges, but in my opinion, the rumbling of the earth, the murmur of the wind, the rustling of the trees, the songs of the birds and insects, in short, all of nature, is guiding the couple into hell. And the ghost itself is part of nature. Neither sex nor love has any meaning. Life itself has no meaning. And if it doesn’t have meaning, isn’t it hell? All I can do is express and project before you this human life devoid of any meaning, this hell that for me is always beautiful.

大岛渚：《感觉世界》中的空间被不同的房间中的爱欲所勾勒出来。它是人工创造的、完全是为了纵欲而设计的。另一方面，在《爱的亡灵》中，这一切都关于自然。阿石有一所房子，她和她的丈夫住在那里。丰次有一间小茅屋，他和他的弟弟住在一起。这两个地方都不是人造的。这对恋人生活在恐惧中，因为他们经常感到大自然的威胁。我试图描绘人类在原始阶段的状况。从这个意义上说，我的这部新电影回到了所有生命的根源，比《感官世界》所探讨的要深刻得多。这对情侣似乎因为性欲而被扔进了地狱，但在我看来，大地的隆隆声，风的低语，树木的沙沙声，鸟儿和昆虫的歌声，简而言之，所有的自然之物，都在引导这对夫妇进入地狱。而鬼魂本身就是大自然的一部分。性和爱情都没有任何意义。生命本身没有意义。如果生命没有意义，那不就是地狱吗？我所能做的就是向你表达和投射这个毫无意义的人间生活，这个「地狱」对我来说永远是美丽的。

What relationship should one infer between the supernatural elements of your story and the Japanese tradition of the ghost story?

记者：你的故事中的超自然因素和日本鬼故事的传统之间有什么关系呢？ Traditional Japanese art, whether it’s Kabuki or Kodan, often calls on the presence of ghosts. In truth, most of these stories came to us from China, and they were transformed to serve as edifying stories of revenge. The ghost in my story is quite different. He’s born out of the folklore that Japanese people have managed to keep alive from generation to generation. He is a popular, homegrown ghost, as has rarely appeared on screen or stage. For Seki and Toyoji, just as for the people in the village, he doesn’t belong to the imaginary. They can actually see him and enter fully into this supernatural universe. Nonetheless, I am aware that viewers today will only “see” the ghost by turning to their imaginations. To prepare the audience for it, I had to put myself in their place. So, for example, the way I handled scenes of physical love couldn’t be completely explicit.

大岛渚：在日本的传统艺术中，无论是歌舞伎还是讲谈，都经常提及鬼魂的存在。事实上，这些故事大多来自中国，它们被改造成了具有启发性的复仇故事。我故事中的鬼魂完全不同，他出身于日本人世世代代传承下来的民间传说，他是一个很受欢迎的土生土长的幽灵，很少出现在银幕或舞台上。对于阿石和丰次来说，就像村里的人一样，他不属于想象中的人。他们实际上可以看到他，并完全进入这个超自然的宇宙中。不过，我知道今天的观众只有靠想象才能「看见」鬼魂。为了让观众做好准备，我必须设身处地地为他们着想。因此，举个例子，我处理肉体性爱场景的方式不能全是露骨直白的。

You focus part of your story on an old well, a symbolic place of passage from outside to inside. Did it strike you as a symbolic place between the imaginary and reality?

记者：你将你故事的一部分聚焦在了一口老井上，这是一个从外部到内部的象征性的通道。你有没有觉得它是一个介于想象和现实之间的，带有象征性的地方？

My first screenplay, when I was twenty-two, was titledSeishun no fukachi fuchi yori[From the Bottom of the Abyss of Love]. We’re all there, we’ve all always been there, at the bottom of that old well. When you throw something into that well, you’re probably hoping to get an answer. If the two lovers go down there before the conclusion of the film, it is because I wanted to express the obvious: we’re still at the bottom of the well!

大岛渚：我在２２岁时写的第一部电影剧本就叫做《来自爱情的深渊》（译者注：大岛渚的第一部编剧作品应为１９５３年，与川端康成共同编剧的《千羽鹤》，大岛渚提及的应该是次年的一部电影）我们当时都进入到了那口旧井中。当你向井里扔进什么东西时，你可能期待得到回应。这对情侣在影片结束之前来到了井下，这是因为我想表达显而易见的事实：我们还在井底！ Why did you make Denzo, Toyoji’s younger brother, a simpleton? Was it to end the film on the vision of the “idiot” left to himself in the deserted village once “the sound and fury” had been appeased?

记者：你为什么要将丰次的弟弟处理成一个傻子?电影结束时，当「喧哗与骚动」过去后，电影是以这个「傻子」一个人独自在这个被遗弃的村庄的视角结束的吗? Nowadays, lawmakers think it’s a good idea to commit these “idiots” to psychiatric hospitals. Back in the day, you would run into them on all the roads of Japan. Isn’t it the law of nature that we should live by their side, just as we live amid animals and birds? Regardless of all that, it’s not a story “told by an idiot.” In the tradition of ancient Japanese stories, the narrator is an old woman. A woman whose face is riddled with deep wrinkles. Deep like the wrinkles of the earth, because the earth is at the heart of this story.

大岛渚：如今，那些制定法律的人会认为把这些「白痴」送进精神病院是个好主意。在过去，在日本的所有道路上，你都会遇到他们。自然法则不就是我们应该生活在他们的身边，就像我们生活在动物和鸟类中间一样吗？不管怎么说，这不是一个「由白痴讲述的故事」。按照日本古代故事的传统，叙述者是一位老妇人。脸上布满深深皱纹的女人。像土地的皱纹一样深，因为土地是这个故事的核心。

The Oedipal nature of the relationship between Seki and Toyoji is very obvious when the young man pushes away the baby she’s breast-feeding. At the time ofSenses,you left the responsibility for any psychoanalytic interpretation to the viewer. Have you evolved since? Are you aware that your films penetrate the subconscious more deeply than any other filmmaker’s?

记者：当丰次推开她正在哺乳的婴儿时，阿石和丰次之间的恋母情结就非常明显了。在《感官世界》中，你把任何精神分析解读的责任都留给了观众。从那以后你有没有变化和进步？你有没有意识到你的电影比任何其他导演的电影都更深入地渗透到潜意识中？

I can only repeat what I’ve always said. Everyone is free to interpret my films as they see them. That said, I am not one of those people who want to interpret the world at any price. I identify with beings like Seki and Toyoji, with people who live and die without ever being able to read their destiny. They’re the ones I feel the closest to. If you call that being close to the “subconscious,” I accept your formulation. I wonder, however, if the work of the artist doesn’t boil down to expressing and projecting outside of himself, as simply as possible, that which resists interpretation.

大岛渚：我只能重复我一直说的话。每个人都可以自由地按照他们看到的方式来解读我的电影。也就是说，我不是那种不惜一切代价去解读世界的人。我认同像阿石和丰次这样的人的存在，认同那些活着然后死去，却无法预知自己命运的人。他们是我觉得最亲近的人。如果你称之为接近「潜意识」，我接受你的表述。然而，我会思考，是否艺术家的作品难以表露和投射到他自我的范围之外，并且那些解释也会尽可能地简单。

What does Seki’s blindness represent? Is it another reference to the myth of Oedipus?

记者：阿石的失明代表了什么？这是不是「俄狄浦斯神话」的另一处例子？ What if this were the punishment that Gisaburo wanted Seki to endure? Or an expression of complete and total love? Aren’t we happier if we go through life blind?

大岛渚：这是否会是仪三郎想要对阿石施加的惩罚？或是完整而彻底的爱的表达？如果失明度过一生，我们不是更快乐吗？

When Gisaburo’s body rises to the surface, doesn’t it seem for a moment that Seki regains her sight?

记者：当仪三郎的尸体从井里被拉上来时，阿石的眼睛是不是在那一刻似乎又能看见了？ That comment elicits only one question: “DidSeki’s eyes see Gisaburo?” Each viewer is free to decide for himself. But it seems to me that is the case.

大岛渚：这一观点只引出了一个问题：“阿石的眼睛看到仪三郎了吗？”每位观众都可以自由决定。但在我看来，情况就是这样。

Why is Toyoji the last person in the village to “see” the spirit?

记者：为什么丰次是全村里最后一个「看见」鬼魂的人？ How can henotsee it? That is an eternal question, “Quo vadis, Domine?” [Where are you going, Lord?] It’s a universal truth, and an everlasting one.

大岛渚：他怎么可能看不到呢？这是一个永恒的问题，「主啊，您要去哪里？」这是一个普遍的真理，也是一个永恒的真理。

The representative of the law, Officer Hotta, is oddly ridiculous. You even clothe him as a peasant. Is he a character that comes from a comical Japanese tradition?

记者：代表法律的警长的角色出奇地可笑，你甚至把他打扮成农民。他是来自日本喜剧传统的角色吗？ I’ve always used actors with comedic temperaments for the roles of police officers. Because this is a way that I see power. The funnier the representatives are, the scarier.

大岛渚：我经常用带有喜剧感的演员来扮演警官的角色，因为这就是我看待权力的方式。这些权力的代表们越是搞笑，也就越让人可怕。 The manifestations of the supernatural are very simple. How did you conceive of and direct these effects?

记者：电影中超自然现象的表现非常简单。你是如何构思和指导这些效果的？

I never had any intention of directing “special effects.” You talk of simplicity, but like I said, my ghost is a very simple ghost, different from the phantoms that traditional decorative arts have often used for moralistic purposes.

大岛渚：我从来没有想过要导演「特效」。你谈到简单，但就像我说的，我的鬼魂是一个非常简单的鬼魂，不同于传统装饰艺术经常用于道德目的的幻影。

Did you give your cinematographer a lot of leeway, or did you dictate a specific style?

记者：在影片的摄影风格上，你给予了摄影师一些余地，还是你自己有某种特定风格上的要求？ Do I give verbal directions to my crew or my actors? When I put together my team, I choose them according to their own style. They read the screenplay and try their best to be in tune with the demands of the story. It’s very important to me that this harmony, this unity, work itself out without my verbalizing anything. What I really want is for everyone to give the best of themselves in complete freedom.

大岛渚：我要给我的剧组或演员口头指示吗？当我组建我的团队时，我会根据他们自己的风格来选择他们。他们阅读剧本，尽最大努力与故事的要求保持一致。这对我来说非常重要，这种和谐，这种统一，不需要我用语言来表达，就能自行解决。我真正想要的是每个人都能在完全自由的状态下发挥自己最好的一面。

Why is this again a coproduction with France?

记者：为何《爱的亡灵》这次增加了与法国的合作？ I’m not particularly committed to working within the framework of an international coproduction. But this has brought me, in the case ofSenses,to look at Japan in a new way.Passion,which I again coproduced with Anatole Dauman, was another opportunity to deepen my vision of Japan, and therefore of the world and of men.

大岛渚：我并不特别致力于在国际合拍片的框架内工作，但这让我开始以一种新的方式看待日本。我与阿纳托·多曼再次联合制作的《爱的亡灵》是我加深对日本的看法的又一次机会，因此也加深了我对世界和男人的看法。 You said in 1969, “Sex and crime have one thing in common—they are the most violent urges of human beings.” These two urges are tied together throughoutPassion.Will your future work be expanding in that direction?

记者：你曾于1969年说，「性和犯罪都有一个共同点——它们都是人性中最暴力的冲动。」在《爱的亡灵》中，这两种冲动一同贯穿着全片。你会在你未来的作品中延续这种方向吗？ I found, several years after directing my first films, that I was very attracted to these two topics, sex and crime. Subsequently, my films have addressed them in a very analytic way. Today, I’m at a stage where I simply like to project the naked reality of sex and crime before the spectator’s eyes.

大岛渚：在执导我的第一部电影几年后，我发现我对性和犯罪这两个话题非常感兴趣。随后，我的电影以一种十分具有分析性的方式解决了这些问题。今天，我只是想把性和犯罪赤裸裸的现实呈现到观众的眼中。

In the beginning, by your own admission, you aimed to “destroy all aesthetics.” Then you found your own aesthetic, which you once summed up with a shot featuring a flame against a black or dark background. Should one see in that image a metaphor for the passions that consume your characters, or one for your own creative endeavors?

记者：一开始，你自己承认，你的目标是「摧毁所有的美学」。然后你找到了自己的美学，你曾经用一个黑色或暗色背景下的火焰为特色的镜头来总结这一美学。人们应该在这张图片中看到消耗你角色的激情的隐喻，还是你自己的创造性努力的隐喻？

Since my very first films, primarilyNight and Fog in Japan,certain critics have picked up on a shot that for them was characteristic of my work, one where a flame burns in the dark. For me, this flame represents the lives of my characters. But it’s also an image of our lives. I often cite this maxim: “Just like the fish that dwell in the abyss, we cannot find the light until we ourselves shine.”

大岛渚：自从我的第一部电影——主要是《日本的夜与雾》以来，一些评论家就注意到了这个镜头，一个在黑暗中燃烧的火焰的镜头。对他们来说，这是我作品的特色。对我来说，这团火焰代表了我笔下人物的生命。但它也是我们生活的一幅图景。我经常引用这句格言：「就像居住在深渊中的鱼一样，只有自己发光才能找到光明。」

豆瓣评分不高，是因为观众还是以故事内容，叙事节奏作为参考标准。然则这部电影的看点在于导演对芦苇随风摆动的姿态的把握，慢镜头的运用，这些方面的把控营造氛围的工作。他营造的恐怖片氛围是恐中带悲的。同时我发觉到一种导演似乎在表达的一个主题就是女人的不稳定，情绪的癫狂。这似乎是大岛渚在《残酷青春物语》里也表达过的，就是双主角的观念总是此消彼长颠三倒四，永远无法共识，永远是不在一条轨道，往往男主角坚定过后的又倒塌的信念，此时女主角刚刚坚定起来。

这部电影是大岛渚在拍了《感官世界》之后的电影，演男主的演员是《感官世界》中扮演男主角吉藏的演员藤竜也。这部片子里面他演的是一个农村二流子，流氓兮兮的，和《感官世界》里风流小老板的样子差别挺大的。这个故事也是一个婚外情的故事，但这部电影的重点更多在于情欲与社会之间的矛盾。

从日文或者法文的电影名大概都可以看出来，这两部电影算是个姊妹篇，《感官世界》的日文名是愛のコリーダ（爱之斗牛），法文名是L'empire des sens（感官世界），通用的中文翻译采用的是法文的翻译；而这部电影的日文名的直译是爱之亡灵，法文名则是L’empire de la passion（激情世界），至于为什么看的是法文名而不看英文——这部电影的制作方是法国的。《感官世界》描述的是无法持续的两性关系的内部毁灭，而《爱之亡灵》讨论的则是无法持续的两性观之的外部斗争。我如果两部电影同时看过的话，《感官世界》那篇影评，我可能会另外取一个文章名，诸如：情欲矛盾之内部毁灭之类的。

我还是更喜欢《感官世界》一些，《爱之亡灵》讨论的是情欲与社会之间的矛盾，不过凡是婚外情与社会之间的矛盾，那么必然会讨论到婚姻制度。不像《感官世界》这种讨论极端性爱的电影，讨论婚姻制度在文艺作品多之又多，《安娜卡列尼娜》、《金瓶梅》都是讨论的家庭婚姻问题。《爱之亡灵》中，女主角农妇阿石的生活平平淡淡，但她并不幸福，贫穷而且没有性生活，完全不符合她原本对生活的期待，小她一轮的村口光棍丰次一而再再而三上门引诱她，然后就上演了一出，潘金莲西门庆杀武大郎的剧情。后来的剧情我个人觉得没什么逻辑可言，和笔记小说中的杂谈鬼故事差不多，我对鬼怪题材本来就不看兴趣，加之一看女人尖叫哭喊就头痛，所以后面的剧情没有仔细看。此片的优点除了音乐、美术意外，主要在于导演把对情欲和婚姻制度的讨论放在了一个很朴实的背景，即使是普通的农妇对生活依旧有着憧憬，而无趣的婚姻生活显然扼杀了她的憧憬。我觉得此片中对婚姻制度的讨论并没有什么新意，而且本片的节奏有点慢，我想要是李翰祥来拍这种村口愚夫愚妇的鬼神题材故事，大概半小时故事就结束了……

我一向认为离婚率高是好事，无论离婚结婚都是奔着幸福生活而去的，结婚率高离婚率高，都说明了“人民对美好生活的向往”在与日俱增。如果一个社会离婚率低，那么要么是这个社会人口降低、要么是这个社会没有合理的婚姻退出机制。没有合理退出制度的任何组织都是没有参与意义的，婚姻也一样。安娜卡列尼娜、潘金莲、还有本片中的阿石，如果都能够顺利离婚的话，那么这些悲剧故事都不复存在。这么想来，离婚不止可以拯救婚姻枷锁中的男男女女，还可以拯救多少原本会被情杀的人？